By Dr. Bob McCauley
This one is long but it’s worth it, a Classic Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate.
Steve Gruber didn’t say “Vegans Are Misguided Fools Who Aren’t Smart Enough to Eat Meat”, but only because he didn’t think of it. I hear this sentiment a lot. In fact, it’s pretty common. Usually the people who encounter me do so because they are looking for ways to be healthy and that’s what I’m all about. But every once in
a while I get the chance to introduce the concept of what it takes to be truly healthy to someone who does not know who I am and has never heard of my health philosophy. Those encounters have been, let’s say – interesting at times. When they learn I’m a raw food vegan, they immediately stereotype me, make assumptions about my political views, think I’m effeminate, not given to watching sports or engaging in them, that I’m pro-this and anti-that. The fact is that being a vegan says absolutely nothing about me other than I live on vegetables and fruits and don’t eat meat, fish, eggs and/or dairy. I consume algae, chorella and spirulina (in tablet form) for my protein and the broad array of nutrients they contain.
Steve Gruber started all this when he blogged this on WJIMAM’s website : “I have always been an anti-vegetarian, anti-vegan proponent. It was very satisfying while driving home when I heard an interview on the radio with Lierre Keith, author . . . who spoke about how she became very ill from having a diet free of animal products. Her doctor told her she had to change her eating habits and incorporate animal based products if she wanted to be healthy again. . . . That not eating a balanced diet incorporating animal products is a path to malnutrition and an unhealthy life.”
So I retorted to that with a BLOG. I denounced what he said. I did so because I’m tired of hearing guys like Steve Gruber, who know what they’ve heard about health, jumping in with their two cents on a subject that is believed to be a matter of opinion when in actuality it is the facts. Ask me about sports, and I’ll send you to someone who might know something about sports because I’m not one of them. I don’t know Steve Gruber and have never spoken with him. I’ve heard his radio show on several occasions, and I have no reason to believe that Steve isn’t a sincere person. But when it comes to health, like most people Steve is seriously misinformed. My only encounter with Steve was on Facebook, where I dared to challenge him on a subject he knows nothing about: Veganism.
What do medical doctors think about someone’s opinion on medical issues of any kind? They think, “Shut the hell up. You’re not a doctor.” I can understand how they feel since that is exactly what I think when I hear the average person make comments about health. Yet ironically, society turns to medical professionals to have our health questions answered. Everyone believes health is mostly a matter of opinion and that no one actually has the answer of how to be healthy, and what we must do to actually BE healthy. Well, this certainly is not the case. I know what makes us healthy, and what makes us sick. In fact, I know exactly what we need to do to be healthy.
Here is the exchange between a Health Amateur and a Health Professional. Guess who knows what he’s talking about and which one is Googling it as he goes. Enjoy.
Here is Steve Gruber’s response to my BLOG refuting his statements denouncing the vegan diet, ie, a diet without animal protein.
The Steve Gruber Show Bob you are so sadly misguided but your attempt at being an expert comes up short in study after study and report after report. I am glad it works for you but the truth is for the vast majority veganism is a slow spiral into misery. Enjoy your carrot sticks. May 23 at 6:00am
Bob McCauley People ask me, since you’re not a medical doctor, what are your credentials? I tell them I’m a Certified Nutritional Consultant, Certified Master Herbalist, and a Naturopathic Doctor, which took 7 years of study. But the truth is that 90% of what I know about health is what I have directly experienced myself. That’s what people like you never do – experience what a diet is like. Instead you condemn what you have never tried. Haven’t you noticed that every “study” can be easily refuted by another “study”? What cannot be refuted is actual results. I guess what I’m trying to say is that “I’m my own credentials”. FYI – My diet consists of 200 – 300 different foods each year, carrots included. How many foods are in your diet? Bet it’s less than 30. May 23 at 11:34am
The Steve Gruber Show Wow your hubris is impressive. Arrogance is really unattractive. Clearly you’re blinded by your own inflated view of yourself. And your ignorance is amusing as you obviously know nothing about me or my incredible sustainable widely varied and wonderfully balanced diet. I eat mostly what I grow or kill myself as does my amazing talented and beautiful wife the nutritionist. Frankly your ignorance is boring at best and insulting at least. You’ve proven you’re the only case study that matters. How sad. Have fun watching yourself in the mirror.
Bob McCauley It’s not hubris if you can do it. And it’s not hubris if you know what your talking about. You have mistaken confidence for arrogance. The only thing I am inflated with is the knowledge of what true health is. You can hurl insults, and dismissive comments all you want – ad hominem attacks – tisk, tisk. You can do better than that. Read carefully what I wrote in my BLOG. It is the consumption of cooked foods that ultimately is the cause all disease. If you were to eat raw meat, fish, eggs or dairy you would not get sick. It’s the cooking of those foods that brings all disease, but of course people always cook animal foods. How about you do this then I’ll admit you’re 100% correct and go away? You show me any evidence of chronic disease in the wild, chronic, not infectious disease. I understand you are a hunter. You must have a lot of hunting stories to tell. So tell the one about the person who shot a deer, or any other animal in the wild, and found it full of cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. You must have heard many of those types of stories through the years. “In the wild” means an animal that has not regularly consumed cooked/processed foods like the tourist elk of Jackson Hole, WY, that do happen to have cancer – no surprise. I’ll be waiting for your reply with that evidence. Soon, I hope. You should be able to just Google that and have it to me by the end of today. Waiting . . . . May 23 at 3:15pm
The Steve Gruber Show Bob you’re not an expert on anything, you are a bore. May 23 at 12:44pm
The Steve Gruber Show Cooked food brings ‘all disease’? I’ll make this brief you’re an idiot. May 23 at 3:22pm
Bob McCauley Well at least you presented an articulate, well-researched counter argument to my claims, and didn’t just dismiss me with a childish outburst like calling me fat or stupid. That would have been embarrassing for you. I’m still waiting for your evidence of Chronic Disease in the wild. Presenting that would actually demonstrate that you are absolutely correct and I am just the next fool who happened along in your life. Waiting.
The Steve Gruber Show You mean like the contagious cancer that is wiping out the Tasmanian Devil in Southern Australia? Chronic wasting disease in whitetail deer? Or the hemorrhagic disease destroying native fish populations in the upper Great Lakes? Be more specific. May 24 at 9:54pm
Bob McCauley Nice try, but I asked you for examples of Chronic disease in the wild and you gave me examples of infectious diseases. The source of “contagious cancer” is a virus, therefore it is an infectious disease. Same with hemorrhagic disease found in fish, which comes from a virus. “Chronic wasting disease” is caused from prions, which are infectious, deformed proteins found in certain plants. Examples of chronic disease are cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, diverticulitis, Alzheimer’s Disease, etc. I reiterate that infectious disease IS found in the wild, chronic disease is not. Animals in the wild do not consume cooked foods; rather they live exclusively on a diet a raw foods. Right?
The Steve Gruber Show Of course there are two of my dogs that both died of systemic cancer. Never saw either one using the grill or the frying pan. But hey maybe they were sneaky. · May 24 at 9:55pm
Bob McCauley Your two dogs most certainly lived on store-bought, processed dog food such as Iams, Dog Chow, Purina, etc. Cooked and processed foods are essentially same thing since they are both dead. You cannot expect to get life from eating dead foods. A raw food is one that has not been exposed to heat above 109F. If your dogs had lived exclusively on fresh, raw, organically raised meat, they would not have died of cancer, a chronic disease. Humans are the only species on Earth that contract chronic disease other than the animals we domesticate and put on a cooked and/or processed food diet.
The Steve Gruber Show Gee Bob you are wrong again. Devil facial tumour disease (DFTD) is an aggressive non-viral transmissible parasitic cancer—which likely originated in Schwann cells—that affects Tasmanian devils. The first “official case” was described in 1996, in Australia. May 26 at 8:53pm
The Steve Gruber Show Waiting May 25 at 6:01pm
The Steve Gruber Show And just so you know what it is Bob: A parasitic cancer or transmissible cancer is a cancer cell or cluster of cancer cells that can be transmitted from animal to animal. They are quite rare in both animals and humans. Parasitic cancers are distinct from cancers caused by infectious agents such as viruses and bacteria, which are more common. May 26 at 8 :54pm
Bob McCauley As I have said repeatedly infectious disease is found in nature, chronic disease is not. The tumor diseases you keep referencing are all infectious, contagious diseases.· May 27 at 12:07pm
The Steve Gruber Show Again Bob. The thing is you’re not even making this a challenge. · May 26 at 8:54pm
The Steve Gruber Show Anyway Bob enjoy the carrots and best of luck.· May 26 at 9:17pm
The Steve Gruber Show Do animals get diabetes? Of Mice, Dogs, and Men. Do animals get diabetes? Yes. Some animals do get diabetes naturally, including apes, pigs, sheep, horses, cats, and dogs. All mammals produce insulin, and will develop diabetes (defined as high blood glucose levels) if their pancreatic beta cells are removed. Vets classify canine diabetes into “insulin deficiency diabetes” and “insulin resistance” diabetes (perhaps somewhat analogous to type 1 and type 2 in humans). Female dogs may also develop a canine form of gestational diabetes. There is some evidence that dogs do actually develop a form of autoimmune diabetes, that is more similar to Latent Autoimmune Diabetes in Adults (LADA) than to childhood type 1 diabetes (Gale 2005c). Interestingly, some of the same autoantibodies found in humans with type 1 diabetes have also been found in some dogs with diabetes (Davison et al. 2008). (See the types of diabetes page for more on LADA and gestational diabetes, and the autoimmunity page for more on autoantibodies). Technically, only humans get type 1 diabetes (Gale 2008), although some authors do use the term type 1 to describe autoimmune diabetes in animals. · May 26 at 9:14pm
Commentary: Here’s where Steve Googled “Cancer wild animals” or something to that effect and came up yet more evidence of infectious disease. In truth, if you look hard enough you can find a study that mentions chronic disease in the wild, but the actual evidence of what animal, where and under what circumstances did the animal live are sketchy at best. What we’re left with is the startling evidence that chronic is only NOT prevalent and finding any evidence at all in wild animals that do not come in contact with humans or eat the foods that human cook and process.
The Steve Gruber Show Cancer Kills Wild Animals Too Cancer accounts for about 10 percent of all human deaths. If you think that sets us apart, scientists have news for you: Wild animals die of cancer at about the same rate, and it threatens some species with extinction.
Commentary: Let me interject here: Animals in the WILD do NOT die of cancer at the same rate as humans. Domesticated animals that live primarily on cooked and/or processed foods die of cancer at the same rate as human. NOT animals found in the WILD. There is almost NO documented evidence of chronic disease found in the wild.
The Steve Gruber Show “‘Cancer is one of the leading health concerns for humans,” Dr. Denise McAloose, a pathologist for the Wildlife Conservation Society, said in a statement. “But we now understand that cancer can kill wild animals at similar rates.”‘
McAloose and her colleagues compiled information on cancer in wildlife and concluded that cancer poses a conservation threat to certain species. The team called for greater protection of animals and people through increased health monitoring. They published their research in the July edition of the journal Nature Reviews Cancer.
Cancer threatens the survival of entire species, McAloose said. For instance, the Tasmanian devil, the world’s largest carnivorous marsupial, faces extinction from a cancer known as devil facial tumor disease. This contagious cancer spreads among devils usually through fighting and biting. To save the species, conservationists are relocating cancer-free Tasmanian devils to geographically isolated areas or zoos.
The study suggests links between wildlife cancers and human pollutants, as well. For example, beluga whales in the St. Lawrence River system have an extraordinarily high rate of intestinal cancer — it is their second leading cause of death. One kind of pollutant in the waters, called polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, is known to cause cancer in humans. The compounds are suspected carcinogens for beluga whales as well. Fish in other polluted waterways, including brown bullhead catfish and English sole, also exhibit high levels of cancer.
Viruses are another culprit. In some animals, viruses can induce cancers that interfere with reproduction. Genital tumors in California sea lions occur at much higher rates than previously documented, the paper shows. Dolphins, such as the dusky dolphin and Burmeister’s porpoise, found off South American coasts, are also showing higher rates of genital tumors.
Other virus-induced cancers can affect an animal’s eyesight or its ability to feed. Green sea turtles suffer from fibropapillomatosis, a disease that causes tumors to grow on the skin and internal organs. A virus is suspected to cause these tumors.
Monitoring the health of wildlife can illuminate the causes of cancer in animal populations and better safeguard us and them against diseases, McAloose said.” · May 26 at 9:10pm
Bob McCauley This is nothing but a cut and paste reply. You should use your own words to defend your views. Students get into all kinds of trouble doing this sort of thing because it’s cheap and easy. More importantly it doesn’t make you think for yourself. Anyway, this is yet another example of an infectious (contagious) disease.
The Steve Gruber Show High blood pressure in nature? Dogs often suffer from secondary hypertension, or high blood pressure due to some underlying disease process. The most common canine diseases that can lead to high blood pressure are chronic kidney disease, Cushing’s disease (an overproduction of cortisone by the body), and adrenal gland tumors. With high blood pressure, blood vessels can become thickened and stretched and may eventually rip and tear, causing bleeding. This may not be immediately noticeable, but as small vessels in the eye and in the kidneys begin to be destroyed, patients will begin to show clinical signs. Symptoms of high blood pressure are often unnoticed by the owner. A sudden or gradual onset of blindness can be the only outward sign that your pet may have high blood pressure. High blood pressure can worsen existing kidney disease, can cause bleeding in the brain, and will eventually affect every organ in the body. · May 27 at 6:00am
Bob McCauley Dogs found in the wild: No, you are wrong. Domesticated dogs that are fed processed foods: yes, you are right. Domesticated animals are fed cooked and/or processed foods and they end up with all the same chronic diseases that humans get. You keep sending me examples of contagious (infectious) diseases found in the wild, and there are plenty of those. Rabies is a good example of a contagious disease found in the wild. Chronic diseases are not contagious and stem only from our diet. Doctors tell us that these diseases stem from our genes so they brainwash us into believing that diseases such as diabetes “run in families” when only dietary habits run in families; disease does not run in our genes. Even if disease did it could be reversed by proper diet. This is why all chronic disease can be reversed, and why the body is capable of healing itself of any chronic disease. Reversing disease is something that the medical establishment does not promote because it can’t do it. Drugs don’t reverse disease, they control symptoms and they ALL come with side effects. May 27 at 12:05pm
The Steve Gruber Show So diabetes is infectious? How about high blood pressure and degenerative arthritis all of which occur in animal populations in the wild. You’re wrong about your assertions Bob. Period. You can either admit the truth or argue and try to mislead others. · May 27 at 12:36pm
The Steve Gruber Show And all chronic disease does not come from our diet anymore than high blood pressure in wild apes does. You’re wrong Bob. · May 27 at 12:37pm
The Steve Gruber Show And you’ve changed it from cooked food to our diet. Big change that one. · May 27 at 12:38pm
The Steve Gruber Show Diabetes, hypertension, arthritis and numerous chronic diseases exist in wild populations. Stop believing fiction Bob. My article was spot on accurate and you cannot handle it. · May 27 at 12:40pm
The Steve Gruber Show You pretending to be some of medical professional is damned concerning. I wonder how many so called patients have been harmed by your hocus pocus malpractice. · May 27 at 12:42pm
Bob McCauley That is a pretty strong accusation, especially since you know nothing about me. I am NOT a medical professional. I know NOTHING about medicine. I have never once offered any kind of medical advice to anyone. I am a Health Professional. Medicine and health are complete different things. Unfortunately, and ironically, we have been trained to look for answers to what is healthy from medical doctors who know nothing about health. All they know is medicine. We have been brainwashed to believe that medicine leads to health when in fact it does not. Drugs, for instance, attempt to control the symptoms of disease. They don’t ever lead to an actual cure of any disease. FYI, I don’t see patients and never have. Instead I tell people what has made me healthy, and what they can do to be healthy. It’s their choice whether to follow my advice or ignore it. You may or may not agree with me, but I don’t “pretend” to be anything other than a health professional. There is nothing “hocus pocus” about living on a diet of raw fruits and vegetables, which is the only way to truly be healthy. I know, another insane statement coming from someone who doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about. You must be asking yourself, how can this guy say he’s healthy when he doesn’t eat animal protein? How can a human live without meat and be healthy? Where does he get his protein? That’s what is really at issue here, isn’t it Steve? · May 28 at 3:40pm
The Steve Gruber Show No Bob it’s your broad based easily disproved statements like those about chronic disease doesn’t exist in nature when in fact they do. I’ve proven that already. I also know that the human body requires such things as Taurine to make synaptic relays function. Taurine only comes from animal protein. Facts are not relevant to you however and no matter how much actual science is put forth you’ll tell me about your personal experience which by itself means exactly nothing. Anyhow you do as you please Bob I’m not concerned except by your original reckless attack on me and your refusal to admit you were wrong about a variety of things including the diversity of my diet which exceeds 30 items on a weekly basis. I checked after your erroneous remark. Anyway good luck Bob. I wish you well. · May 28 at 5:27pm
Bob McCauley If that’s your way of saying ‘I’m right, you’re wrong. Thanks, see ya’ – nice try. You have not disproven any of my statements, not one, especially the fact that chronic disease is not found in the WILD. You offered several examples of infectious, i.e. contagious, diseases in the wild, but not a single example of a chronic disease, even though you claim to have “proven that”. Everyone who insists that humans MUST eat meat, which is what this debate is all about, insists that meat contains certain nutrients the human body requires and that these nutrients can only be obtained from meat. This is a completely faulty premise. You mentioned taurine as being something we can ONLY get from consuming meat. Herbivores, or vegans, are incredibly strong and healthy, such as a chimpanzee or a bull. Where do they get taurine? They don’t eat meat. They produce it in their bodies the same way we do when we consume foods that have cysteine, pyridoxine (B6), methionine and vitamin C. Since the human body can produce taurine then it is not an essential nutrient which MUST be consumed because the body cannot produce it. Any nutrient that the body cannot produce and must be consumed such as fatty acids or all the minerals that body requires are known as essential nutrients. Since the body can produce it, taurine is not one of them, therefore your latest argument for consuming meat does not hold up I’m afraid. Yes, I depend on my experience to know what true health is, but I studied for 7 years preciously so I would also have the FACTS. I became a Naturopathic Doctor so I would have the credentials that so many in our society look for as a sign of legitimacy. You wrote a blog that clearly denounced veganism as being an unhealthy, unsustainable diet. I respectfully countered your assertion that we MUST eat animal protein to be healthy. How is that a reckless attack? I chose to denounce what you wrote in your blog because I am tired of hearing that animal protein MUST be consumed if we expect to be healthy. I hear this constantly. When I denounced your comments and countered them with my own arguments you immediately dismissed me and called me an idiot (several times). You stated: “. . . that not eating a balanced diet incorporating animal products is a path to malnutrition and an unhealthy life”. Those are your words and you are completely wrong. Look at the bulls, elephants, deer, horses, pandas, beavers, all vegans and all of them strong and healthy. None of this is a matter of opinion, but rather fact, however you have repeatedly claimed that I have never offered any facts. If you have more than 30 foods in your diet, that’s great. You’re doing better than 90% of the population because most people do not have more than 30 foods in their diet. If you are eating foods out of your garden, and killing the wild meat that you eat then you are doing better than 90% of the population. You’re an exception because the majority of people get most of their food from a box or can. I asked you some questions at the end of my last response about where I get my protein, which is really what this is all about. You get your protein from a secondary food source: meat, fish, eggs and/or dairy. They are considered secondary food sources because you are eating the animal that manufactured its flesh or eggs by consuming plants as its food. I get my protein from Chlorella and Spirulina, two types of algae, which are 60% protein and the two most powerful foods known. They have the broadest array of nutrients and are the most nutrient dense foods known. They are vastly superior forms of protein compared to animal protein. Not including these foods in your diet is the biggest error vegetarians and vegans make and that’s why so many get sick. I’ll be waiting for you to condemn these two superfoods as well. Since you’ve probably never heard of them, I’m sure you will. · May 27 at 5:27pm
The Steve Gruber Show Bob with all due respect can you read? I’ve destroyed every single one of your so called arguments. · May 27 at 12:14pm
The Steve Gruber Show Learn to read. Please. · May 27 at 12:14pm
Bob McCauley Is that your way of saying that you have run out of arguments against the vegan diet? Jake Shields – amazing MMA fighter, Thor Bazler – world champion power lifter, Robert Parish – NBA Player, Dave Scott – Iron Man champion: All vegans. Some body Builders are vegans. Any response to this list, or are we done? May 27 at 12:33pm
Bob McCauley If you killed an animal and found it rife with lung cancer, bladder cancer, brain cancer, arthritis, fibromyalgia, diabetes would you eat it? I think not. Animals killed in the wild have never been found with these diseases in them. Please reply this time with something a little more than trying to inform me that I need to learn how to read. I have written 6 books, 5 on health. I know how to read, thanks. · May 27 at 2:12pm
The Steve Gruber Show No Bob it’s my way of saying can you read? You attended an unaccredited school. No wonder you cannot defend the truth about high blood pressure in the wild or cancer in the wild or arthritis ALL of which are chronic NON communicable diseases. It’s my way if giving up on your cult like mentality. Which is what it is. Enjoy the seaweed Bob. May 27 at 12:40pm
The Steve Gruber Show Really Bob? I have found deer I’ve killed riddled with intestinal tumors. I didn’t eat it. Animals DO GET arthritis in the wild!!! Are you joking??? Animals in the wild ARE FOUND WITH diabetes!!! Christ Bob you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. Who fed you all this crap? · May 26 at 12:40pm
The Steve Gruber Show OK Bob another study, this one from the University of Oklahoma Zoology Department. Arthritis is abundant and prevalent in the wild- May 26 at 12:40pm
The Steve Gruber Show http://digital.library.okstate.edu/…/oas…/v57/p39_43.pdf May 26 at 10:45pm
The Steve Gruber Show Read the link Bob… if you can actually admit you’re wrong or you’ve been lied to. · May 26 at 11:50pm
Commentary: Sorry Steve, but nature NEVER lies. All I do is follow nature. I find it ironic that all this you’ve said has come from a guy who seems to pride himself at being close to nature. God grew an apple, we invented a frying pan and that was our greatest invention, yet the undoing of our species because the firing of our foods has brought on all chronic disease.